tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21031350.post4166705367088762800..comments2023-11-12T09:52:42.825-05:00Comments on Medieval Woman: Blogging with Historical Novelist Susan Higginbotham: In Which I Ponder the Subject of Queen IsabellaSusan Higginbothamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13517907583894026599noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21031350.post-43788523069739552462007-01-12T16:02:00.000-05:002007-01-12T16:02:00.000-05:00Nan, great points!
Margaret, now I can't get the ...Nan, great points!<br /><br />Margaret, now I can't get the picture of everyone on the Jerry Springer show off my mind! Worse, I also have a picture of everyone on Oprah, and them being directed at the end to give each other a big hug and go home.<br /><br />Daytime TV could have worked out so many things in centuries past . . .Susan Higginbothamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517907583894026599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21031350.post-72784613063658667702007-01-12T15:52:00.000-05:002007-01-12T15:52:00.000-05:00Susan, your comments about Isabella are quite good...Susan, your comments about Isabella are quite good and most interesting. I am a proponent of presenting a historical character as a mixture of flaws and virtues. Admittedly it's a sliding scale! How tempting for the modern author/historian to look back through time and assess a situation or motivation through the lens of our own learning and deductions and culture. We have the advantage of knowing how things turned out, and the consequences of the person's actions, short-term and long-term.<br /><br />I would love to see Isabella on the Jerry Springer show, especially if confronted by the furious remnants of the Despenser family. Not to mention Edward III. Imagine the ratings!Margaret Porterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16202290659191790984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21031350.post-59645777422665445302007-01-11T21:50:00.000-05:002007-01-11T21:50:00.000-05:00I wanted to second Gabriele's comments on Princess...I wanted to second Gabriele's comments on Princess Diana with one exception. Yes, she was not an especially admirable person. She was nothing more than a socialite. She was shallow, vain, and selfish, and had terrible judgment. People only liked her better than Charles' current wife becuase she was young and sort of pretty.<br /><br />Where I differ is in Gabriele's concession that Diana loved her children. I remember hearing a story about how little William slipped a note under the bathroom door where Diana had locked herself to scream and cry. The note said something like "Don't be sad, Mummy." How loving is it to subject your children to something like that? Even if I was not inclined to believe Diana was throwing a tantrum, if she really was in pain then she should have gotten help and done all she could not to terrify her little boys. <br /><br />We are into stars these days and imagine if someone is a celebrity they are somehow superior human beings. It is symptomatic of what I said above about feminism that someone as vapid as Princess Diana can be so canonized.Kit mosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03991738631295745319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21031350.post-86170019388384549532007-01-11T21:42:00.000-05:002007-01-11T21:42:00.000-05:00One of your best, Susan!
To get back to the defin...One of your best, Susan!<br /><br />To get back to the definition of feminism, which in spite of its root refers to any person as a whole person, not just women, to admire any woman becuase she is strong makes no more sense than doing the same with a man. That is to say, admire strength if you will, but leave gender out of it. <br /><br />Otherwise you are in fact expressing "womanism", which, in my humble opinion, is what feminism has devolved into. We have gone from believing in equal opportunity where rights and responsibilities are apporttioned regardless of gender back into seeking special protected status for women. We call it something else, but it is still characterizing half the planet as needing special care. I for one find that insulting.<br /><br />If women are turning to Isabella as a heroine becuase she was equally brutal as men like Mortimer, then I can't see how this can be heroic for her and villainous for him.<br /><br />I would pose that admiration for Isabella has nothing to do with feminist values.<br /><br />I wrote so much better a response yesterday but for some reason it did not post! Let's try again...Kit mosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03991738631295745319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21031350.post-64211132044219763862007-01-09T23:38:00.000-05:002007-01-09T23:38:00.000-05:00Gabriele, now you've got us curious! I always like...Gabriele, now you've got us curious! I always liked Lady Di myself, but then here in the US we probably heard more about her charitable doings and so forth than about her theatrics. I do think Camilla was a better match for Charles, though.Susan Higginbothamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517907583894026599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21031350.post-43188990277799222342007-01-09T14:19:00.000-05:002007-01-09T14:19:00.000-05:00Carla, I always thought Camilla suited Charles bet...Carla, I always thought Camilla suited Charles better; she shares his interests and cares about him, while Diana only cared about herself (well, about the kids, too) and did not share any of Charles' hobbies. Add to that Di's disposition for theatralics - someone who knows her told me a story there ;) - and it's no wonder the marriage didn't work out.Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21031350.post-79167355473743517352007-01-09T14:04:00.000-05:002007-01-09T14:04:00.000-05:00Gabriele - I once had a row with a complete strang...Gabriele - I once had a row with a complete stranger over the breakfast table at a conference when the guy said he couldn't understand why on earth anyone would fancy 'horse-faced' Camilla when they had the beautiful Diana. I told him that was a facile comment, and there was more to a marriage than looks, and that I wasn't impressed with manipulative interviews, and so on. I don't suppose he was expecting that at 6.30 in the morning :-) Neither was I, to be honest, but for some reason his flip comment pressed one of my buttons.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21031350.post-73342006063073296072007-01-09T13:56:00.000-05:002007-01-09T13:56:00.000-05:00Elena - Sorry!
Alianore - I had a not dissimilar ...Elena - Sorry!<br /><br />Alianore - I had a not dissimilar mental image :-) Perhaps because Isabella's story <i>as recently told</i> fits that pattern rather well. Whether Isabella herself would have recognised it is a moot point, though! <br /><br />It's odd how black and white seems to be more appealing than shades of grey, isn't it? I find the grey more interesting, myself. Not least because the grey can accommodate the contradictions in someone's character, like Isabella being subservient some of the time and independent at others, kind at some times and a complete bitch at others. I never have understood why there's a need to 'resolve' such contradictions; most people aren't consistent, so why on earth should historical figures be any different?Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21031350.post-75042331063515193752007-01-09T13:12:00.000-05:002007-01-09T13:12:00.000-05:00Lol, I never liked Isabella since I read Les Rois ...Lol, I never liked Isabella since I read <i>Les Rois Maudits</i> - albeit I think Druon <i>tried</i> to make her sympathetic; only he failed with me. I think she was woman with double moral standards, and that's the ones I hate most. <br /><br />Never liked Lady Diana, either, btw. :)Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21031350.post-64832673402603930622007-01-09T12:13:00.000-05:002007-01-09T12:13:00.000-05:00I totally agree with what Daphne says about Isabel...I totally agree with what Daphne says about Isabella managing to be both strong, and dependent on Mortimer, at the same time. However, I just think it's a wee bit convenient how her modern biographers try to insist that she, not Mortimer, was totally in control when doing something they approve of - like invading England, or negotiating the peace treaty with Scotland - but totally under Mortimer's thumb when doing something they don't like, such as murdering Edward II or judicially murdering the earl of Kent. Psychologically, I find Isabella's relationship with Mortimer fascinating and complex - I just don't think you can pick and choose when you want Isabella to be subservient the way her defenders tend to do, and insist on her enormous mental strength at other times.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21031350.post-24142931112431324122007-01-09T11:19:00.000-05:002007-01-09T11:19:00.000-05:00True, Daphne! I remember being astonished when I w...True, Daphne! I remember being astonished when I was in family law to see how many women, given the choice between staying with their abusive, druggie boyfriend and keeping their children, would choose the boyfriend every time. My clients were at the lower end of the social scale, but I suspect the same holds true for many woman at the upper end too.Susan Higginbothamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517907583894026599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21031350.post-70530103441599853462007-01-09T09:27:00.000-05:002007-01-09T09:27:00.000-05:00Having just finished reading the two Plaidy books ...Having just finished reading the two Plaidy books covering Isabella's life, I think you make some great points. For most of the first book, I totally felt sorry for her, but after her husband was deposed, it seemed like she took on a totally different personality that was not very likeable or sympathetic.<br /><br />I'm not sure that she can't somewhat have it both ways in being a strong woman when it came to dealing with her situation with Edward, but being a weaker, more dependent one with Mortimer. Perhaps she was so starved for love that she was willing to "sacrifice" that part of herself in return for what she perceived as Mortimer's love for her. Had she continued being the person she had been, would he have stayed with her? Of couse he would have since what he wanted was power, but to her, maybe she was afraid of losing him. It is not uncommon for women to play this game (and for many it is totally unconscious) in order to keep a man and not be alone.Daphnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12838072651419264066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21031350.post-21380144459879600552007-01-09T09:04:00.000-05:002007-01-09T09:04:00.000-05:00Great comments, all! You are so right--I can see I...Great comments, all! You are so right--I can see Isabella on the talk show circuit now. And the Richard III comparison is quite apt too. I think that many people just can't deal with shades of gray.Susan Higginbothamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517907583894026599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21031350.post-61453770233764504902007-01-09T08:38:00.000-05:002007-01-09T08:38:00.000-05:00Since reading Carla's comment, I can't get the ima...Since reading Carla's comment, I can't get the image of Isabella being interviewed on TV out of my head. That famous interview Diana did, a few years ago - with all the eyeliner - now I'm picturing Isabella in her seat. "For so many years, my husband neglected me for his male lovers" *Sighs, bats her eyelashes* "but somehow I found the courage to leave him, and now I've discovered true happiness and fulfilment with Roger Mortimer."<br /><br />Or, Isabella on Jerry Springer or similar, with the audience hollering "You go, girl!"<br /><br />Funny how so many portrayals of people are either extremely positive or extremely negative - Carla's example of Richard III is a good one. For centuries Isabella was the 'She-Wolf', now she's practically a saint, it seems. It's all so black and white.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21031350.post-84938735462306206522007-01-09T07:48:00.000-05:002007-01-09T07:48:00.000-05:00I never cared much for Isabella, even before I kne...I never cared much for Isabella, even before I knew so many details. I was always surprised that Edward III turned out as well as he did - someone else must have raised him.<br /><br /> Oh,no, Carla! Don't destroy my illusions!! I thought Richard III was a cross between King Arthur and Sir Galahad! Oh, what a way to start the day....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21031350.post-50850970508036035902007-01-09T05:46:00.000-05:002007-01-09T05:46:00.000-05:00I think Alianore has hit it with her comment that ...I think Alianore has hit it with her comment that it's a <i>modern</i> narrative. You could imagine Isabella being interviewed on a TV chat show or telling My Story to a tabloid newspaper or celebrity gossip magazine, couldn't you? So it's perhaps seen as easy to 'relate' to and therefore easy to sell, whereas a more balanced portrayal is messy and complicated and requires some effort.<br /><br />It may also reflect the same process that's turned Richard III into a cross between Sir Lancelot and Sir Galahad - a reaction against a (perceived) unfair portrayal that goes to the opposite extreme.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21031350.post-50054196684845428722007-01-09T04:23:00.000-05:002007-01-09T04:23:00.000-05:00Great post, Susan. Just recently I've also been p...Great post, Susan. Just recently I've also been pondering, and making notes on, historians' treatment of Isabella, with a view to a future blog post - it's like you read my mind! :)<br /><br />What strikes me most is how <i>modern</i> their depiction of her is - as a victim who found the strength to get out of a bad marriage and take control of her own destiny, who was courageous enough to leave her husband and find sexual fulfilment elsewhere. This is a late 20th century/early 21st century narrative, not a medieval one, surely?<br /><br />I think it's great to remember that history is not only about (white, heterosexual) men, and I'm all for recognising women's contribution, but too often I feel that Isabella's role in events is greatly exaggerated - as one example of many, Doherty's comment that Isabella 'set up an alternative government' in Paris in 1325, when of she did no such thing. But of course it sounds a lot better than the reality: 'Hung around with a group of English exiles at the French court'. :)<br /><br />I've often commented on my blog how irritated I am at some historians' insistence that Isabella was solely responsible for all the 'good' or 'admirable' things that happened 1326-30, but then using Mortimer as a convenient scapegoat for all the mistakes and 'nasty' things. So I won't write any more about that now. ;)<br /><br />I'm very sympathetic to Isabella in many ways, and I do think it's possible to write a biography or novel with a balanced view of her and Edward - both of them flawed people who made lots of mistakes, but who had many admirable qualities too. The overly sanitised version of Isabella seen so often these days does her no favours.<br /><br />I could write loads more, but I'll save some things for another blog post. :)Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.com